10-15 is seriously limited. As per our recent listserv discussion, there are so many diffferent aspects of blogging that we are interested in that it would be impossible to choose just 10-15. Heck, my blogroll just keeps on growing.

sb
My Blog

I'm guessing it's because the links are for Rhetcomp.com, and the site design makes the links go into a small space. Observe my webliography, which contains only twelve links. Then again, Jeff Rice was able to get more links in there, since he didn't include annotations.

CultureCat

I don't doubt that it is a question of design. I just don't envy Barclay having to choose 10-15 blogs. There are so many different (kinds of) blogs that this would be an impossible task for me.

sb
My Blog

i say we just start building one here on kairosnews. wait, i did that already ;)

everyone just start adding more in. anyone registered at kairosnews can edit that page. easy enough to just build the resource that we want.

I don't think he's attempting to be clubby about the whole thing. I think that he's been given space/interest limitations and he's trying to provide a taste of the conversation, not an exhaustive bibliography.

---------------------
Stephanie Holinka
Weeblog, why don't you?
http://www.weeblog.com
thegrape@unm.edu

That doesn't really answer the question. The site's design is complete and utter crap, for one, so taking for granted a small space for a limited amount of links basically says, "OK, we're fine with really stupid design." I mean, look at the code: this stuff is circa 1997, when many of us are attempting to do good and thoughtful design with CSS and standards compliance.

Yes, it's a problem of design. Which indicates that it's unfortunate to have somebody who has zero grasp of web design principles holding the domain "rhetcomp.com".

--

Mike
http://www.vitia.org/

I'm not "fine with really stupid design." I realize I gave the impression in my earlier comment that I am fine with it, but the site's design problems are legion. Maybe Matt Levy will change it if we ask.



Edited to add: I've just emailed Matt the link to this thread in case he hasn't seen it and would like to respond.

CultureCat

i don't have time to do it, but have you considered volunteering to submit a css-based design to matt? he might be interested.

I'm happy to try and put together a CSS-based design that lets content come across, that doesn't rely on frames and tables, and that doesn't rely on turning text into images. (Matt! Why did you do that?)

Having noticed some of the other discussions around here, one might even ask: why not migrate the management of links on rhetcomp.com to Drupal? It might make it easier to update more frequently -- and might obviate my contention with Barclay's methodology :).

ME

--

Mike
http://www.vitia.org/

Yes, I am working within the limitations of the given design. In fact (and I think y'all will love this one), the blogs are going to be listed on the listserv page because the current design won't accomodate a new tab/image for blogs.

But I think this thread is also skewed by a blogocentric perspective. We're used to blogrolls, which roll on and on. We're used to blogs, period. But the audience here is quiet different, I assume. Rhetcomp.com is for a larger audience, after all, and I wonder if a long blog list would even be useful for *that* audience. I wonder if blog after blog after blog wouldn't be just a bit overwhelming.

In the end, I'm going to do the best I can. Period.

Barclay, I really have to disagree: the quality of comprehensiveness is not an undesirable quality. I have yet to hear anybody complain about the overabundance of content on Voice of the Shuttle.

I'm happy to hear that you're going to do the best that you can. I look forward to seeing how that intersects with your earlier declaration of having no principle of selection.

--

Mike
http://www.vitia.org/

Hi Folks,

I enjoyed your spirited discussion, especially Mike's unrestrained hostility.

Remember please, as you disembowel my child, that--as you may have heard on NPR--*expectations are resentments in formation*. Your biases reflect the desires of bloggers, who value democracy over time. You disdain anyone who would want quick access to pre-filtered information (would this be fair to say?). I designed the site specifically for those who want the guidance of a field editor's knowledge. There are plenty of sites aiming at comprehensiveness, and Rhetcomp.com links to many of them. They are valuable. Selectivity is also valuable. Rhetcomp.com will continue to do what it is doing, and we will not mind failing at what we are not trying to do.

I admit that more modern coding would speed it up, allow for more efficient updating, and could duplicate the site in a form more easily accessible to the blind and color blind. The larger number that likes and praises the design tend to be less web-savvy, but that, after all, is our intended audience. The web-savvy do fine with google, etc. and don't need rhetcomp.com.

If someone wants to recode the site for quicker uploading, easier updating and to be more accessible to all, I would be happy to see this, but the parsimonious constraints and the basic look will remain. The weblog is a powerful medium, but must every site employ the "running style" of blogorrhea? Blogs will eventually have their own link off the main page (when I find the time).

Thanks to Clancy for bringing my attention here. Perhaps it is better to be derided than to be ignored :)

Can you help Barclay be selective, or does any discrimination run against the code of the great Blog? Do you have 10-20 favorites? Or do we all just prefer our own?

Best,
Matthew Levy

"You disdain anyone who would want quick access to pre-filtered information (would this be fair to say?)." Maybe fair, but inaccurate. The concept of blog-as-filter is a commonly discussed characteristic of many weblogs and thus inline with "blogocentric" thinking, to quote Barclay's use in another quote.

So it's not that, but the lack of filtering which is/was at issue here. At the 4C's Blogging SIG, Barclay handed out a very similar sheet with a number of weblogs listed and asked us to fill it out. Because I wanted to oblige, I asked how many we should select and what were the criteria for making our choices? I hear the same concern about filtering echoed here in Mike's original post. As per the original directions with the poll, it invites people to pick their favorite, which does in fact privilege a sort of "A-list." A-lists have their own problems, as has been critiqued by many bloggers.

So, since you asked, here would be my criteria:

1) All selected weblogs should be frequently updated. Some bloggers say that blogs are supposed to be updated daily. I tend not to agree with that because a weblog which has one or two excellent posts a week average might be better reading than one that posts two or three times a day on average.

2) An exception to (1) would be a no longer running weblog which demonstrates well the use of weblogs. For example, Invisible Adjunct will no longer be active. But as an example weblog, it could be an excellent choice.

3) I would think that the choices should either be (a) a good example of knowledge making in our field, or (b) by someone in our field who might not be blogging as an academic or teacher, but their blogging represents the best of weblog writing as a genre.

4) I would look also to have a range of blogging applications represented. Not all MT, Blogger, or Drupal. At least have 4 or 4 blogging applications represented among the choices.

5) I would include two or three community weblogs, but mostly focus the list on individual blogs (which should be easy).

6) I would also make sure to include the longest running bloggers that might fit the criteria. I would imagine that Dennis Jerz and Jeff Ward would be good candidates in this regard; of course, there may be others.

7) And while there are many good bloggers out there in related fields who might be of interest to people in rhet/comp, unless they are researchers on blogging, I'd probably avoid including them in the list since the range of choices is probably already pretty high.

Anyone else have some ideas, or criticism, of my suggestions?

"If someone wants to recode the site for quicker uploading, easier updating and to be more accessible to all, I would be happy to see this, but the parsimonious constraints and the basic look will remain. The weblog is a powerful medium, but must every site employ the "running style" of blogorrhea?"

I understand about the coding part (which is why I suggested Mike submit a new theme for rhetcomp.com to you). I've been meaning to upgrade Kairosnews to the new version of the software and tweak the layout but just don't have the time. Would be great if someone else would volunteer to do it.

Meanwhile, while I would agree that a weblog wouldn't suit your purpose, at some point, if you continue to enlarge the category areas within the site, a full-featured CMS might help quite a bit, if for no other reason that it would allow you to allow editors to edit their content directly through the GUI, thus allowing more frequent updates and more current choices. This does, of course, require some initial overhead in setting up such a system. But it would offer many advantages.

Might be a better match with the portals page since many sites that are portals also contain blog components, and many blogs are typically portals to other blogs and additional resources. Open Source Schools and Kairosnews, which are listed there already, could both sort of fit the portal and blog category. Much less in common between listservs and blogs.

I know you are right. If I could find someone willing to stick with the basic look and constraints who would make people able to update their own pages, I would be overjoyed.

Sorry, Matt. No personal animus meant at all: as other folks here have occasionally seen, I tend to find bombast an unfortunately convenient rhetorical technique. (Dad was a lawyer.) I think the service you're trying to provide with the site is terrific: my big reservations -- which, yes, are strong -- are about the table-based design and substituting graphics for text. Check out some of the scholarship (I think it's fair to call it that) on usability, design, and access over at alistapart.com -- they're saying smart things over there.

I'm no designer, but if you're interested, I'd enjoy working on a re-code that might help to make your resource more accessible.

And, like I said, no personal animus intended, and apologies for my bombast. I think you're doing good stuff.

--

Mike
http://www.vitia.org/

It's very easy for me to setup a drupal site for what you are doing and I would be glad to do the installation and site setup. getting the overall format to match is easy, too. It's duplicating the exact graphical design that would be the hard part and ten times as much work as setting up the site. So it would depend upon how much you would be dependent on having some kind of custom theme design. That's the part that I would not have time to invest in right now. Of course, this would require a Drupal friendly host, but there are plenty of those if you know what you are looking for.

See, it doesn't have to be blogocentric in design. Drupal allows for static page creation, pages which look like regular web pages. A good example is Tim Lindgren's personal site (although Tim seems to be using the collaborative book--slight difference in appearance). Note that the column on the left is a customizable block--just html for the links pasted into a gui field. Then each page is also just html pasted into a gui.

The advantage is that you could create a class of users who would have the permission to edit content on the site. It's not easily possible to limit a user to specific pages (the developers are working on that for the next version). But if you were willing to let the editors have edit permissions on all of the pages, then it would work fine.

I wasn't really offended. I was just using your post to have fun and explain my reasoning for the small space constraints. As I said, my constraints and basic look must stay; however, if you want to give it a shot, I'll look at what you've done. Thanks.
-M

That has been a concern of mine. I don't really know many of the participants. Rhetcomp.com isn't a clique, as someone said. Because I don't know people, I would need the permissions architecture to prevent them from messing up each others' pages. Thank you for your offer and suggestions and I will continue to think about this. I'm going to stop posting now before I become a blogger :) :) Is it too late? :) :)
-M

Thanks for these comments and your email as well (to which I will soon reply), but I wanted to pick up on the A-List concerns you express here. You gesture toward a critique of such lists and I may be about to repeat such a critique, in which case I'd certainly appreciate a pointer to where I can learn more about this particular hotbed.

My particular concern has to do with the inevitability of such lists. Bracketing for a moment chaotic system, power laws, and blogs (see, for example, http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html), doesn't any blogroll make an argument for such a list? Doesn't the blogroll here do so?

My interest is less in accusation ("Ha! Avoid A-lists says the A-Listing A-Lister!") and more in negotiating the thorns of this particular briar, even beyond the rhetcomp.com issue. How, in general, do we avoid A-Listing? Can we?

i understand, although you could certainly take the wiki attitude toward colloboration (lol).

there are other cms's that might provide page level permissions, but my expertise is with installing and setting up drupal, so i can't help you there. when node level permissions are more feasible in drupal, i'll let you know and see if you are still interested.

I finally got around to revising the site to load faster. Just thought you some of you might be interested. I kept the space restrictions though.

rhetcomp.com